Target Margin sits down with Jesse Fredman, Artistic Director of Meta –Phys Ed., to talk shop about his new work THE TALMUD (based on The Talmud and Kung-Fu films). We’re delighted to have him back in the building with this innovative genre–bending performance. Read our interview below with Jesse and drop into the Kung-Fu inspired telling of THE TALMUD.
For those of us who lack esoteric knowledge of ancient Jewish rabbinic text… What is The Talmud?
That is not an easy question to answer. The Babylonian Talmud is a 63 volume compilation of Jewish Law and Rabbinic commentary on every aspect of Jewish ritual, daily and public life. The Talmud was compiled and edited around the year 5-600CE in Iraq, but we don’t actually know very much about who these editors were.
A section Talmud begins will a statement from a 3rd century code Rabbinic law, called the Mishna. The Talmud with ask a question about that Mishna, and then respond to that question with different opinions from Rabbi’s going back to Moses. Sometimes it tells strange stories about Rabbi’s sages or the Prophets, sometimes it will just go on and on about legal minutia.
The Talmud is very, very complex. The logic of the Talmud is very unique, and it not always clear what genre or literary register it is speaking in.
Tell us about how you first made the connection between Kung-Fu films and The Talmud? What brought these two seemingly disparate cultural traditions together?
I was watching a Kung-Fu movie… In the movie, a guy hides in a coffin, which reminded me of a story I heard from the Talmud. I didn’t grow up with the Talmud, and when I did try to study it, I had a very hard time understanding it. But now, whenever I looked at the Talmud, I would start to see Kung-Fu movies play out in my head, and it started to make more sense; the stories, the historical and political context.
I see parallels between the authors of the Talmud and filmmakers who make Kung-Fu movies. These are people that create very complex reflections on ancient traditions that are reflections of radical change in the world around them. What are their relationships to the traditions they are preserving and interpreting? I would also argue that the culture of the Talmud and the culture of Kung-Fu Films are not as disparate as we might think. The Talmud was produced in the Sassanian Empire (6-7th century, Iraq, Iran). The Sassanian Empire ended where the Chinese Empire began.
Power seems to be a common theme in both The Talmud and Kung-Fu films. Do you feel that presenting The Talmud through the physical medium of Kung-Fu fighting helps the audience understand the power of words?
I think that both texts thematize violence and diplomacy. In both texts, the potential for conflict and violence is present in every human encounter. We are presenting The Talmud through genre (and sub-genres) of Kung-Fu films. One feature of that genre is the choreography. Another feature of that genre is the choreographic event and its context in a narrative, and a very specific set of idioms. Kung-Fu choreography, like Talmudic debate, is a complex, virtuosic, demonstration of skill. Sometimes it is violent, fast and dynamic. Sometimes it is peaceful, beautiful, harmonious and gentle. Also, “Kung-Fu” (The accumulation of skill over time) can apply to one’s ability to use words, their ability to avoid violence, and to teach effectively.
The choreographic event that is the demonstration of the choreography arises out of a dramatic or narrative circumstance. This is similar to a musical, in which the song and dance arises out of the narrative. However, as one scholar has pointed out, Kung-Fu films are also similar to pornographic films, in the sense that “it is always easier to ‘motivate’ a fight scene (or, in the case of pornography, a sexual ‘number’) than people bursting into song” (Altman 1981).
I think we recognize in arguing and debate, a similar draw towards violence. On a very simple level, the drama of the Talmud is the following:
Someone walks into a room and challenges someone else to a competition. Add the presence of thousands of years of tradition. That is exactly what Kung-Fu movies are about.
What was the most challenging aspect of dramatizing The Talmud as a director?
Understanding the Talmud for myself, and with the cast. What it is saying on the page, and, what it is doing. The Talmud is complex. A similar challenge is understanding Chinese martial arts cinema, the history and tradition they are embedded in.
What are your required Kung-Fu films to watch before coming?
1. Ip Man
2. Shaolin Abbot (Aka Slice of Death)
3. Prodigal Son
What’s next for you and Meta- Phys Ed.?
I’m working on a project based on Walter Benjamin’s essay “The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction”.
Jesse Freedman is a New York City based director of contemporary theater and performance.
In addition to directing new and classical plays, Jesse conceives original original performance works.
He is the co-founcer of Meta-Phys. Ed. and collaborates with Target Margin, WorryNoiseDirtHeat, The Anthropologists, New Yiddish Rep., The Living Theater, Jewish Plays Project, Eschatological Theater, Jewish Theater Workshop, Lang Arts, Sanguine Theater Company and Spicy Witches. He is Illusions Assistant for Harry Potter and Cursed Child on Broadway. He has trained with the SITI Company and holds an MFA in Theater from Sarah Lawrence College.